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Post by Darknezz on Jun 10, 2009 4:55:21 GMT -5
If you think your mind is too small to understand God, then how do you actually know that there is one, or that anything you claim about him is correct? Or is it only that you think my mind is too small? well the question really is how do you know there is no God? Can you explain everything in the universe? Have you read the bible? or the books of other religions? you really can't say there isn't unless you've examined all the information depicting that existence. I do not know, nor do I claim to know, if there is a God or not. I do not believe, because there is insufficient evidence for it. Although, I may go so far as to argue that a God is highly unlikely to exist. And this has no relevance. No, I can't explain everything in the universe. No one can. But that doesn't make your God any more likely, it doesn't make it any more supported. A quote comes to mind about how the more we learn about how the universe works, the more we realize we don't know. Your "God of the Gaps" argument is so fractally wrong, it makes me want to puke. I have read the Bible. Well, chunks of it. But that's not relevant. Scripture isn't sufficient evidence to believe anything. If I were to write a story about this fellow, Cheesus, who lived some centuries ago, and he could alter reality however he wanted because he's the son of the supreme ruler of all that is, Gog, does that mean it's true? No. It means I wrote a story. And that's all the authors of the Bible did, as far as I can tell. Please, give me something that makes the Bible or some other holy book valid. Give me something that supports your God's existence. You have failed to do that, and you've been posting little bit-sized, sound clip versions of actual arguments. If you don't start making rational arguments, that are well thought out and orated, I'm going to start adding warning levels, because you're not debating. You're throwing useless garbage that you think will actually work, because it sounded neat. And yes, I can say that Gods are unsupported without reading every holy book and bit of scripture. Hitler was a Christian. A man of God, and he killed eleven million people. There are some other examples of terrible Christians, and even the Christian God, that do unspeakable things. This isn't a result of them being Christian any more than my love of the internet is a result of my atheism. |
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dodecalypse
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Post by dodecalypse on Jun 13, 2009 17:21:54 GMT -5
I have a odd view as people have told me on religion. My family is Catholic, heavily at that, but I'm a Christian to an extent.
You see, I believe there definitely is a God or sentient being, however I believe that he either;
1. Doesn't care about us
2. Gets a kick out of watching us suffer.
I kind of want to believe the second because if I was God and had to spend eons and eons alone, hell, I'd screw around with my creations too. Like how our type of a practical prank woul be say tying someone's shoes together or putting salt in their beverage. I believe God's (or whomever it goes by) type of practical joke goes along the lines of genocide, mass hysteria, and tragedy.
I'll probably get attacked by this ideal, but hey fine. And I'm not against any other religion, as while Christianity has been responsible for hundreds of millions of deaths throughout history; if you look past the literature you will find that a lot of the bible's teachings reinforce morals. Always be kind, and be peaceful are the best ones.
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Post by Darknezz on Jun 13, 2009 17:59:43 GMT -5
I have a odd view as people have told me on religion. My family is Catholic, heavily at that, but I'm a Christian to an extent. Catholics are Christians. They just have extra baggage. Please, explain why you believe that. Especially since you seem absolutely certain in that belief, I'd like to know why. If the Christian God were exactly as the Bible says he is, I'd guess number two. He's kind of a dick. He's not alone. He has angels and crap. A God who gives that kind of thing out as a practical joke is not fit for worship. At all. Period. And I'm surprised that you didn't go the obvious route that a lot of Christian go, in blaming pestilence and strife on the devil and Lucifer. Do you have a reason to believe that it wasn't them, but that your God is just a massive asshat? Please, elaborate. Total non sequitur. Christianity is responsible for tons and tons of deaths. I fully agree. But then you jump to "the Bible's teachings reinforce morals"? How do you get to that? Especially with crap like blood sacrifice, God-ordained murder and rape (Deuteronomy 20:10-14 among others), the murder of people who don't don't abide by the verdict of priests (Deuteronomy 17:12), the murder of homosexuals (Leviticus 20:13), enslaving foreigners (Leviticus 25:44-46), selling your daughter as a sex slave (Exodus 21:7-11), among a ton of other immoral, unjust, and downright wrong practices, I'd like to know how anyone can seriously defend the Bible as being a great moral guide. |
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dodecalypse
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Post by dodecalypse on Jun 14, 2009 19:59:03 GMT -5
I believe in all the scientific facts, but I mean where did it all originally start? And before that? Did it all just spring up? I thought it was some rule that matter can't just spring up out of nowhere. Plus the idea of how life actually became on Earth as bacteria and other microorganisms.
Who knows, maybe it is Satan himself. That's why I'm not too sure on my beliefs and ideals with Christianity. There's no way to prove or really disprove a religion so it's all subjective as to what one believes.
Argh, I know. That's a flaw of mine when I write.
But on the morals and teachings of the bible. Why are you quoting the Old Testament? Nearly every Christian can tell it's out dated. Those were accepted back in the appropriate times. From your ideals, I can tell you don't go to church much, but the modern church does not preach from those books of the Old Testament. For that reason alone, they are outdated and the rules are not suited for modern day. Besides maybe the Ten Commandments. You've read them, how is not condoning morality?
But the teachings of Jesus according to their authors, do teach people to strive for excellence and understanding. Here's a quote from Jesus himself, or rather the Bible; "Do unto those, as you would them do unto you". Or several other variants. That's taught in schools, and nearly everywhere.
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Post by Darknezz on Jun 14, 2009 23:11:18 GMT -5
I believe in all the scientific facts, but I mean where did it all originally start? And before that? Did it all just spring up? I thought it was some rule that matter can't just spring up out of nowhere. Plus the idea of how life actually became on Earth as bacteria and other microorganisms. You're partially right on both points. One of the laws of the universe is that matter cannot be created or destroyed. However, before the universe as we know it today, and even right after the big bang, the laws could have been much different. But that's beside the point, because even though we don't know how this universe started, it doesn't make your God idea any more feasible. All you've done is say, "Well, there's some stuff we don't know." And no matter what the answer to, "What started the universe?" is, even if it's "I don't have a clue," you still haven't made a case for your God. You touched on the First Cause argument, to which I refer you to the Iron Chariots page on this; wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=First_causeAlso, as for abiogenesis (where life began), it also doesn't mean that you can stick "God did it," in there without stating a case for your God having done so. Support this claim or drop it. You're right, it's fairly difficult to prove that a God doesn't exist. However, we can say that a God is highly unlikely. Before I get to that, I'd like to launch into how beliefs are formed rationally. Your default position on any claim is disbelief, especially when dealing with claims like God. The default position is to reject the claim that a God created us until sufficient evidence for that claim is shown. Then, we get to standards of evidence. For the claim, "My name is Bob," I'll take your word for that, because it's inconsequential and doesn't matter all that much. However, if you say, "I have a unicorn," I'm going to require you to show it to me, or give me some type of evidence that it exists, otherwise, I'm going to not believe you. The same goes for God. Until you've given me some reason to think that it exists, I'm not going to, so get on your arguments. Belief in something is subjective. Its existence, however, is not. The nature of reality is not subjective. You've freely admitted that it's impossible to prove that a God exists, so why do you believe? I don't care what the pulpit spews. Your argument was that the Bible was a moral guide. I refuted that. Oh, and the pulpit still spews anti-homosexual drivel, they still spew otherwise objectionable crap, and they still preach the Bible. The bible is not the Good Book they claim it to be. That shi t's in there, regardless of if they outright tell you. They tell you to follow the bible, and the bible is not good. As for disregarding the Old Testament, I will quote the book at you some more. Matthew 5:17, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." Matthew 5:18-19, "For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Clearly, the Old Testament is not to be ignored. There are more quotes, if you want them. Oh, and "It was moral back then" is bullshit as well. I don't care what was socially acceptable, it was still immoral. And the Ten Commandments is part of the Old Testament, so you're cherry picking. You're essentially taking what's good about this terrible, immoral God, pointing to it, and saying "Oh well, he's a good guy!" You can't do that! At least, not and call yourself a Christian. Let me pose a rhetorical question; Do you think slavery is immoral? If yes, you are going against your God's decree. If not, you're a prick by anyone else's standards. Again, your God did some good stuff and a whole fuckton of bad stuff (supposedly). I don't see how this makes him moral, and certainly he isn't perfect. All of that aside, I will leave you with one final directive. You've defined your God as the Christian God. Make your case as to why you think he exists, and as to why, if he does exist, we should worship him. |
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britishbakura
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Post by britishbakura on Jun 18, 2009 6:43:34 GMT -5
you just had to make a thread didn't you =/ well i believe in a God, i am a spirtualist so therefore i believe that spirits or ghost w/e you want to call them, do exsist and that they can in fact contact this world, i should know. imo, God is a higher being then all else and also if anyone wants to know the meaning of life is to learn, that is the reason we come to earth or any other planet w/e. God is not a cruel unforgiving bastard, we, as spirits before we come in this life, choose our own path that we will take in life, if we choose to be a good person or bad it is up to us and God helps us on our way, karma is Gods way of punishing the bad things we do, so if for example you kill a person in one life, you will karma and have something 3 times as bad happen to you. i also think that if someone wants to believe something they can, this thread is just your way of bashing someones religion and rubbing it in their face, i believe what i believe and i let others believe their own things it's not mine nor anyone elses say. sit there and critize my belief all you want but this is my say and i'm sticking to it. :3 Not really debatable; Back up your claims with sound reason or logic in the debate section, please. |
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jargen88
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Post by jargen88 on Jun 22, 2009 20:05:35 GMT -5
Here is what I think of the subject I am a Christian and believe in God because I have had experiences with God that are memorable. I use to have little faith until I was taken to a Big event by my friend. It seems to me that all Atheists believe that Science is the only awnser to the situation. Well ill tell you this, you are looking in the wrong place to find the evidence. You have to see past it to find what you are looking for. If you are truly interested in understanding God, then go to church or a big Christian concert or something. From what I have seen of this debate is just people arguing back and forth bashing the way people think. The truth is its too hard to preach behind a computer screen. Text is not very convincing.. so go and do something to find out what God is really like. Or was this topic made for the sole purpose of bashing? "Go to Church" and "science is wrong" are not acceptable for the debate section. Back up your posts. Rambling about a personal experience and telling us to go to church is not debatable. It's bible-thumping. |
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zekana
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Post by zekana on Jun 22, 2009 20:23:35 GMT -5
Here is what I think of the subject I am a Christian and believe in God because I have had experiences with God that are memorable. I use to have little faith until I was taken to a Big event by my friend. It seems to me that all Atheists believe that Science is the only awnser to the situation. Well ill tell you this, you are looking in the wrong place to find the evidence. You have to see past it to find what you are looking for. If you are truly interested in understanding God, then go to church or a big Christian concert or something. From what I have seen of this debate is just people arguing back and forth bashing the way people think. The truth is its too hard to preach behind a computer screen. Text is not very convincing.. so go and do something to find out what God is really like. Or was this topic made for the sole purpose of bashing? "Go to Church" and "science is wrong" are not acceptable for the debate section. Back up your posts. Rambling about a personal experience and telling us to go to church is not debatable. It's bible-thumping. i dont bash on the idea of god. i bash on the idea of organized religion. i hate people who blindly follow a faith, never questioning it or believe that by going to church, they become closer to their god or gods or alien overlords. whatever. you don't have to go to church every week just to sit down and hear a bunch of useless speech. you can stay at home, open a can of soda or beer, and watch your favorite show and just enjoy yourself. that is how you get closer to god or whatever you believe in, by living your life how you want to, not how something in a book tells you to live, or the person hold the book. but to stay on topic of the debate, please tell me how going to church each week makes you closer to god? how does going to a building with tons of other people sitting down and listening to 1 guy talk for an hour make any difference in how much god loves you or not? this is something ive always wondered myself as to why people do this so please answer me if you can. that is my rant. rip it apart as you like, thats how a debate is meant to be. disprove what i say if possible. (ps, atheist. im leaving it at that) |
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lux138
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Post by lux138 on Jun 23, 2009 0:53:03 GMT -5
In my humble opinion, religion only exists purely on fear of what will happen after death. I understand why someone would believe for that sense of hope and salvation at the end of the road, but churches and organized religion is complete bullshit. Organized religion is purely here to make a buck out of your beliefs. I once saw an ad at a church for a necklace that has a bible passage inside of a little glass shell and they stated, "Make God even to your heart with this holy necklace." Anyone who needs a trinket to let them know how much of a good follower they are deserves to be punched in the face. You do not need churches, organized religion, items, or any of that bullshit to be able to feel close to your God, or Gods or whatever you believe in.
If you truly love God, burn a church.
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Post by SnowOwl96 on Jun 23, 2009 10:40:53 GMT -5
I'm going to come out and say this. Jargen, I think I know what you mean by people bashing each other. If you look at everyone's post really closely you'll see that they aren't truly bashing your religion or anyone else's for that matter. They're just trying to make sense out of what someone is telling them and the way that they word some things may seem like they're being mean but they're not. If you want to know my thoughts check the first Oh... I don't know, 12-13 pages.
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jargen88
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Post by jargen88 on Jun 23, 2009 12:24:31 GMT -5
Here is what I think of the subject I am a Christian and believe in God because I have had experiences with God that are memorable. I use to have little faith until I was taken to a Big event by my friend. It seems to me that all Atheists believe that Science is the only awnser to the situation. Well ill tell you this, you are looking in the wrong place to find the evidence. You have to see past it to find what you are looking for. If you are truly interested in understanding God, then go to church or a big Christian concert or something. From what I have seen of this debate is just people arguing back and forth bashing the way people think. The truth is its too hard to preach behind a computer screen. Text is not very convincing.. so go and do something to find out what God is really like. Or was this topic made for the sole purpose of bashing? "Go to Church" and "science is wrong" are not acceptable for the debate section. Back up your posts. Rambling about a personal experience and telling us to go to church is not debatable. It's bible-thumping. i dont bash on the idea of god. i bash on the idea of organized religion. i hate people who blindly follow a faith, never questioning it or believe that by going to church, they become closer to their god or gods or alien overlords. whatever. you don't have to go to church every week just to sit down and hear a bunch of useless speech. you can stay at home, open a can of soda or beer, and watch your favorite show and just enjoy yourself. that is how you get closer to god or whatever you believe in, by living your life how you want to, not how something in a book tells you to live, or the person hold the book. but to stay on topic of the debate, please tell me how going to church each week makes you closer to god? how does going to a building with tons of other people sitting down and listening to 1 guy talk for an hour make any difference in how much god loves you or not? this is something ive always wondered myself as to why people do this so please answer me if you can. that is my rant. rip it apart as you like, thats how a debate is meant to be. disprove what i say if possible. (ps, atheist. im leaving it at that) well ill tell you one thing.. sitting and watching TV does not get you closer to God and believe me when I say this.... I have questioned God more times than anyone i know.. Ive probably wanted to become Athiest about several hundred times in the past. But God pulled me through. I prayed to him and he helped me. What I was trying to say about church is not that you have to go, but a church is obviously the best place to find awnsers to any athiest questions about the subject. People who go to church every Sunday or even the guy who preaches has the best knowledge of God and his subtle work. Like I said text is not very convincing. so all in all. You don't have to go to church at all, But if you are intrested, that is the best place to go. and to the mod i did not say Science is wrong.. I said Science is the wrong place to find an understanding for God... |
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zekana
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Post by zekana on Jun 23, 2009 15:52:36 GMT -5
1. im not allowed to step into the local church in town. they know im an atheist and think its the biggest sin on earth.
2. again, why a church? it seems as if you could gain the same answers just from talking to friends or those outside of church about the same subject. what makes the church itself, a building crafted by man, so important to connecting with your god? thats what ive never understood.
or any religiously significant building for that matter. what makes them any more holy or important then any other building built by a guy? couldn't you do the same thing you do in a church in an office building? a school? whatever.
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Post by shortbus on Jun 23, 2009 17:06:02 GMT -5
"well ill tell you one thing..[ 1: sitting and watching TV does not get you closer to God and believe me when I say this].... [2: I have questioned God more times than anyone i know.. Ive probably wanted to become Athiest about several hundred times in the past. But God pulled me through. I prayed to him and he helped me.] What I was trying to say about church is not that you have to go, but a church is obviously the best place to find awnsers to any athiest questions about the subject.[3: People who go to church every Sunday or even the guy who preaches has the best knowledge of God and his subtle work.][4: Like I said text is not very convincing]. so all in all. You don't have to go to church at all, But if you are intrested, that is the best place to go.
and to the mod i did not say Science is wrong.. 5: I said Science is the wrong place to find an understanding for God..."
1. God doesn't want you to enjoy your life? He wants you to go to church and sit there in boredom for an hour? That's a pretty good reason NOT to worship him. That's pretty lame.
2. Can you go into more detail on how god pulled you back and helped you? Did you literally hear a voice in your head? Were there subtle things that happened that could easily be called coincidence that you, being a believer, took as a sign?
3. Why is a preacher who has a followed a book someone good to go to for a serious matter like this? See #4
4. If text is not so convincing, how can you be compelled by the bible? The bible is just text, in fact it's called "script". The only thing those preachers have done is read the bible, which isn't a reliable source, and they've gone to a seminary, which probably doesn't take a realistic and objective look at the way things actually are, like science does.
5. How come science is so good at figuring things out until it comes to religion?
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Post by SnowOwl96 on Jun 23, 2009 20:48:21 GMT -5
I think I'm going to have a migraine, Oh what the hell. Massive mindfuck of a mess ya'll have created here.
Where to start?
Okay, some of you I can tell worship god far more than I do.
Look we go to church to listen to the preacher, pastor, priest, whoever talk about god, jesus and the bible. Some services take an hour, some last 30 minutes. Wether the service are an hour or 30 minutes, doesn't really matter and shouldn't because that is time that we christians, catholics or whatever religion you are spend to worship god. It may seem lame to you but to others it's not. People find ways to enjoy themselves and their lives wether it be with god, family, friends or with nature itself.
I won't answer 2 because I haven't tried to change my religion.
To answer your 3rd question. Because preachers don't sit on their ass all day long with their finger up their butt while reading text out of an old book such as the bible. They actually do talk to other pastors of the same and different religions. Kinda like what we're doing except they go into depth. They share their views and I take it you've never been to a christian or catholic service before. The preachers try to take things that are happening now and tie it into their sermons.
If you don't know what that is I'll explain a little. Sermon is where a preacher takes part of the bible and reads it out loud and then talks about what he or she just read.
to answer your 4th question read answer #3.
I have a funny feeling if I go any further on this I'll end up preaching and that's not what I want to do.
5. Perhaps there are things that cannot be seen or made into logic, at least not yet. As some have said science isn't the way to go when it comes to religion, not at this time at least. No one knows although some claim to know that he exists. People believe in whatever they want, I'm not here to tell you your place. I'm just sharing some incite to the religion that I've come to know.
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Post by cookieninja182 on Jun 26, 2009 19:00:11 GMT -5
Ehh, I believe in God, but not Jesus, because I am not Christian.
And when I say God, I mean whatever or whomever created us and put us here.
Because something like the world can't just up and happen. :/
I do not believe God is a jealous God, or that he is vengeful, and what ever else Catholics say he is.
I do not believe I have to tell a priest all of the things I've done wrong, and I do not believe that saying a prayer a million times is going to make it better.
I do not believe that going to church for an hour, doing kneeling and standing exercises and reciting another human beings words is going to save my soul.
I grew up Catholic, and have visited many churches in my area. They all sounded like BS to me. (In my opinion, not stating that as fact.)
I have also researched other religions, such as Buddhism and Judaism, but found nothing that matched my beliefs fully.
Does that make me non-denominational? No, that makes me non-religious.
Does THAT make me an Athiest? NO, because I believe in SOMETHING, but I have yet to find a "religion" that has voiced every one of my beliefs. (Which, by the way, are not all going to be in this post.)
So I MUST be into Scientology, right?
Really? Really??
No, I'm not.
Frankly, I don't care as to why we're here, because either way, I can't change what happened.
I can, however, help change what could happen, in the now. As in, doing my part in the world, helping out, because sitting around isn't going to help the economy, and if I'm going to gripe, I need to try and contribute first.
The Bible is like a big History book, until you hit Revelations. Then it's fortune telling. (Once again, in my opinion, see the simile?)
Bible is just another word for book, people, come on.
This is why I don't like commenting on religious discussions, I plan to say a few lines, then I write a paragraph. >.>
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