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Piracy
Jan 30, 2009 10:14:50 GMT -5
Post by Darknezz on Jan 30, 2009 10:14:50 GMT -5
The point is that there's a tug-of-war for money between the game companies and the stores, If you buy new the companies gain the stores lose out. If you buy used the stores gain and the company lose out. They need to find a means to balance it out more. What has it got to do with anything? I'm just saying that it's currently more of an issue than Piracy is. (or atleast, in the gaming industry) No, it's not a problem at all, let alone larger than piracy, because there is a balance. People buy both used AND new games. No one really loses out. False dichotomy. There aren't just two possibilities. And again, hardly anyone pirates games any way. Simply because "used games have high prices" doesn't fuel piracy because piracy has next to nothing to do with the cost of things for most people. It's about trying to figure out which games you're going to spend the money on. You're right. It's still breaking the law. But then we get in to why we should follow laws, and that's another debate entirely. Legality aside, because we both agree that it's illegal, you can't say that renting is better for developers than pirating, because when you rent a game, all of the money goes straight to the company renting the titles. The devs still barely get the profits from Blockbuster's deal with the publishers. No, you missed what I said. There's maybe 10% of gamers who know how to pirate games. The majority of those people are intelligent and actually do purchase games after they decide that they'll like them. The minority of people, two or three hundred people, that steal games with LimeWire and don't know the implications of it, aren't hurting game developers any way because the devs who made an amazing game have already had tons of money thrown at them. I'm not saying that it makes the people who are stealing the game without buying it are in any way justified, I'm just saying that they're not really hurting anything like the media claims. I also never said I wasn't stealing anything. I don't deny that what I do is against the law. I don't frankly care, either. I buy games that deserve it, and the games that should burn, should burn. |
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Piracy
Jan 30, 2009 11:03:18 GMT -5
Post by PanchoJoshi on Jan 30, 2009 11:03:18 GMT -5
Very well said Darknezz, Like you said already, sure we all know its illegal. We never tried to justify our own morals on Piracy, saying stuff like XXXX so its okay.
We know that were stealing, we know that its against the law and we know that what were doing is costing Dev's perhaps less then 5% of there profit. But going back on what Darknezz and I have already said, only about 10% (maybe less) know the tricks or the trade. And most of us have enough decency to go out and support a developer.
This is how I choose to explain it;
Some people like paying a dollar for bottled water. Some people like paying 6 - 7 dollars for bottled water and some people like paying 0 dollar for water, getting it from the tap and boiling it.
When it comes to piracy it just boils down to the basics. Some people just like getting stuff for free.
DealWithIt
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Piracy
Jan 30, 2009 19:07:33 GMT -5
Post by davethezombie on Jan 30, 2009 19:07:33 GMT -5
I have to disagree, piracy is terrible when it comes to recent games and movies. It harms people who actually buys the games all because of some greed from gamers. I've heard of people who buy the game, having to download patches for the game, because of the the CD locked DRM system. I don't see any game worth pirating THAT bad, because it's honestly not that necessary. Do you NEED to test that game that bad? No. Do you NEED to see that movie right away? No. So why go through so much effort? Give me ONE documented story of someone who bought a game having to get a patch, and the disc wasn't scratched or damaged in any way. Give me ONE. I fail to see how it "hurts" gamers who bought the game at all. It might hurt the company, if it's someone who just says "LAWL I GET STUFF FOR FREE," but those people are the ones who are going to end up selling kidneys for crack money anyway. And yes, I do need to test out games before I buy them, especially in this day and age when games are on a downfall of mediocrity, except from indie games, and even then, I need to make sure the game isn't f*cking stupid before I fire my $60 at the developers. Well, since you asked: Why should us, buyers, have to suffer for the greed of pirates? If you feel the need to try out the games that bad, then just buy it from a game store, play it for a few days, if you don't like it, return it and get your money back. How hard is that? When it comes to piracy it just boils down to the basics. Some people just like getting stuff for free. DealWithIt Hypothetically, if I pirated off any work you had and said this as an argument, how would you feel? And just because you're gonna go ahead and buy the game after you pirated it, doesn't mean others will. You're giving others the green light to go ahead and do the same. If you honestly think most pirates are going to buy the game, if they like it, after they played a piece of it, then you're frankly wrong. |
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Piracy
Jan 30, 2009 22:04:11 GMT -5
Post by Darknezz on Jan 30, 2009 22:04:11 GMT -5
Give me ONE documented story of someone who bought a game having to get a patch, and the disc wasn't scratched or damaged in any way. Give me ONE. I fail to see how it "hurts" gamers who bought the game at all. It might hurt the company, if it's someone who just says "LAWL I GET STUFF FOR FREE," but those people are the ones who are going to end up selling kidneys for crack money anyway. And yes, I do need to test out games before I buy them, especially in this day and age when games are on a downfall of mediocrity, except from indie games, and even then, I need to make sure the game isn't f*cking stupid before I fire my $60 at the developers. Well, since you asked: Why should us, buyers, have to suffer for the greed of pirates? If you feel the need to try out the games that bad, then just buy it from a game store, play it for a few days, if you don't like it, return it and get your money back. How hard is that? All I see from that video is the assertion that it happens. I said a documented case in which the disc and the drive were in no way damaged, and it was entirely the fault of the protection software. One case of it actually happening, not just some asshole in a chair saying that it did. And hundreds of times, no less. The thing about returning PC games is that most, if not all, retailers refuse to take back PC games because of the whole CD Key issue, in that once a CD key is used, you can't use it again on most products once it's been registered. Couple that with systems like Steam that have you save the thing to an account and offers no way of transferring it, you're looking at a nice system of taking PC gamers' money. And again, you aren't "suffering" because of piracy. Disc protection would be around regardless. Wait what? That doesn't make sense. If you mean, "How would you feel if I stole your garage band's music," then here's my rebuttal: Your analogy doesn't work. My garage band, isn't making money off of our music. Stealing it would be like stealing a free sample. And even if we were making money off of the sale of home-brew CDs, it would have a much larger impact when people steal it, since we're not signed with a record company and we don't tour across country doing concerts. This is where I get in to supporting Indie developers, regardless of if you can pirate their games or not. Most Indie developers release a demo that isn't two minutes long and you can judge the game from it, because they want people to be able to test the game before they buy it, because Indie devs aren't asshats. Believe what you want, but most pirates do in fact support the devs in what ever way they can. And even if they didn't, the company who made the excellent game isn't missing out because they will still have made tons of money off of the sale of legit copies. It really is not a big deal. All of the effort going in to stopping piracy should be more focused on other things. |
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Piracy
Jan 30, 2009 23:10:41 GMT -5
Post by davethezombie on Jan 30, 2009 23:10:41 GMT -5
All I see from that video is the assertion that it happens. I said a documented case in which the disc and the drive were in no way damaged, and it was entirely the fault of the protection software. One case of it actually happening, not just some my dad in a chair saying that it did. And hundreds of times, no less. The thing about returning PC games is that most, if not all, retailers refuse to take back PC games because of the whole CD Key issue, in that once a CD key is used, you can't use it again on most products once it's been registered. Couple that with systems like Steam that have you save the thing to an account and offers no way of transferring it, you're looking at a nice system of taking PC gamers' money. And again, you aren't "suffering" because of piracy. Disc protection would be around regardless. Wait what? That doesn't make sense. If you mean, "How would you feel if I stole your garage band's music," then here's my rebuttal: Your analogy doesn't work. My garage band, isn't making money off of our music. Stealing it would be like stealing a free sample. And even if we were making money off of the sale of home-brew CDs, it would have a much larger impact when people steal it, since we're not signed with a record company and we don't tour across country doing concerts. This is where I get in to supporting Indie developers, regardless of if you can pirate their games or not. Most Indie developers release a demo that isn't two minutes long and you can judge the game from it, because they want people to be able to test the game before they buy it, because Indie devs aren't asshats. Believe what you want, but most pirates do in fact support the devs in what ever way they can. And even if they didn't, the company who made the excellent game isn't missing out because they will still have made tons of money off of the sale of legit copies. It really is not a big deal. All of the effort going in to stopping piracy should be more focused on other things. Well if it's documented cases you want: www.actiontrip.com/rei/comments_news.phtml?id=012909_6 The point is, this shouldn't have happened at all, if there's wasn't so much piracy. As for the CD key problem with retails, that wouldn't be there in the first place, if there wasn't that much piracy. Steam is a fine program. I have yet to have any serious problems with it and neither should you. I don't see why Transferring games is such a necessity. All you need is to play it on one computer. How would you know Disc protection would be around even if there wasn't piracy? There's no way of telling that. It's not about stealing profits from the makers, it's that you're not showing any support for their work. There's no courtesy in pirating just to try their game. The devs would be making more money, and might even improve the quality in their games, if there wasn't DRM, caused by such a large amount of piracy. If you guys could just take the risk in buying games, you wouldn't need piracy. If you didn't like it and wanted to sell it someone, there's always CD cracks for them. Not the same thing as piracy. I really would like to see proof of pirates actually buying the games. Really would. |
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Piracy
Jan 30, 2009 23:17:29 GMT -5
Post by str4ngerd4nger on Jan 30, 2009 23:17:29 GMT -5
i pirate music, but yet i do buy CDs if i feel it is an important band
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dthhand5
Junior Member
Sequence Cat
Posts: 141
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Piracy
Jan 30, 2009 23:33:28 GMT -5
Post by dthhand5 on Jan 30, 2009 23:33:28 GMT -5
I used to pirate music, but I barely do now... but not sure why. I buy CDs because of this damn DRM and only pirate certain songs. I do see certain attempts to stop pirating as pretty useless, like DRM or certain CD key systems. But when it comes to "pirate to try, then buy if you like it", I don't really see the logic behind it. If you got something for free and you like it then it would be really nice to even go out and buy it. You have a free version on you, so why would you pay to get the same thing?
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Piracy
Jan 30, 2009 23:47:21 GMT -5
Post by davethezombie on Jan 30, 2009 23:47:21 GMT -5
You have a free version on you, so why would you pay to get the same thing? As dark said, you do it out of respect and support for the devs. Even though it doesn't show, you feel better about yourself for doing it. |
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Piracy
Jan 31, 2009 2:58:15 GMT -5
Post by Darknezz on Jan 31, 2009 2:58:15 GMT -5
All I see from that video is the assertion that it happens. I said a documented case in which the disc and the drive were in no way damaged, and it was entirely the fault of the protection software. One case of it actually happening, not just some my dad in a chair saying that it did. And hundreds of times, no less. The thing about returning PC games is that most, if not all, retailers refuse to take back PC games because of the whole CD Key issue, in that once a CD key is used, you can't use it again on most products once it's been registered. Couple that with systems like Steam that have you save the thing to an account and offers no way of transferring it, you're looking at a nice system of taking PC gamers' money. And again, you aren't "suffering" because of piracy. Disc protection would be around regardless. Wait what? That doesn't make sense. If you mean, "How would you feel if I stole your garage band's music," then here's my rebuttal: Your analogy doesn't work. My garage band, isn't making money off of our music. Stealing it would be like stealing a free sample. And even if we were making money off of the sale of home-brew CDs, it would have a much larger impact when people steal it, since we're not signed with a record company and we don't tour across country doing concerts. This is where I get in to supporting Indie developers, regardless of if you can pirate their games or not. Most Indie developers release a demo that isn't two minutes long and you can judge the game from it, because they want people to be able to test the game before they buy it, because Indie devs aren't asshats. Believe what you want, but most pirates do in fact support the devs in what ever way they can. And even if they didn't, the company who made the excellent game isn't missing out because they will still have made tons of money off of the sale of legit copies. It really is not a big deal. All of the effort going in to stopping piracy should be more focused on other things. Well if it's documented cases you want: www.actiontrip.com/rei/comments_news.phtml?id=012909_6 The point is, this shouldn't have happened at all, if there's wasn't so much piracy. This, again, is just "people said it happened." I want a case where people took a completely new, untouched disc, put it in to a completely new disc drive, and it gives an error like the one in that case (which, by the way, had nothing to do with the anti-piracy crap on the discs). It doesn't happen, because errors like that occur when the disc isn't read correctly, which happens when a drive is too old to recognize the disc, or the disc itself is scratched because of careless owners. CD keys were around before piracy. GG sequence. Steam being a bad idea is another debate entirely. Please, make a topic for it. Because, people like redundant security to make them feel safe, even when that security is just a false image. How are we not supporting their work when we pirate a game? If a game is in demand, and pirated frequently, I would be flattered as a developer. It means the game was good, and people spread the word to other people that need to try the game. If the money isn't the issue, then fine, there shall be no more talk of how we do support the devs. If pirating a game isn't supporting the devs, neither is renting it, neither is playing it at friend's house, nothing except buying the game, and I don't see how that supports the devs any more than if I were to play it at a friend's house, if money and profit isn't the issue. The devs would make more money? I thought that wasn't the issue here? Moving right along; DRM isn't anything new. Developers hardly have to do anything to put antipiracy crap on their discs, the idea that not having to put it there would change anything regarding the quality of the game is absurd, especially because the effort and time and money wasted on the technology doesn't work and is such a trifle amount that it wouldn't change a damn thing. People don't like risks, especially when it comes to where money is involved, and buying a game isn't random chance like a poker game or something like that, there's no strategy, there's no bluff, no other players at the table. There's you, $60 and the choice between games that you can have no way of knowing whether they'll be any good at all. And yes, that would be the same thing as piracy and still illegal. Well, I could scan the receipts of the next game I buy, but there's no way of proving to you that I pirated it before hand, and if I do pirate a game, how am I to prove that it's pirated? |
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Piracy
Jan 31, 2009 3:57:35 GMT -5
Post by davethezombie on Jan 31, 2009 3:57:35 GMT -5
This, again, is just "people said it happened." I want a case where people took a completely new, untouched disc, put it in to a completely new disc drive, and it gives an error like the one in that case (which, by the way, had nothing to do with the anti-piracy crap on the discs). It doesn't happen, because errors like that occur when the disc isn't read correctly, which happens when a drive is too old to recognize the disc, or the disc itself is scratched because of careless owners. Now you're just asking for too much. How is this not enough proof? Does the large amount of cases of this report not count for any problem that DRM has caused? CD keys were around before piracy. GG sequence. Steam being a bad idea is another debate entirely. Please, make a topic for it. Thing about CD keys back then, they could be used over and over again. No problems whatsoever. Only purpose they served was to show proof you bought the game. As for the Steam topic, I'm not gonna bother making a topic unless you strongly feel that way. How are we not supporting their work when we pirate a game? If a game is in demand, and pirated frequently, I would be flattered as a developer. Because you're not really taking a chance on their game. You're just saying 'Oh, I'll pirate it to try it because I can and I'm lazy.' Where's the appreciation? It's not about the devs making profit. It's the motivation. If I were a dev and all I saw where people pirating my game, I'd feel like sh*t. As if my work isn't even worth taking a risk on a person to buy my game. Everyone would be too lazy and self-secure about their money. If pirating a game isn't supporting the devs, neither is renting it, neither is playing it at friend's house, nothing except buying the game, and I don't see how that supports the devs any more than if I were to play it at a friend's house, if money and profit isn't the issue. It's the fact that your friend bought it that counts. And by playing it at a friend's house, you may be even convinced yourself to buy it, hence supporting the devs. It's own advertisement, if you will. People don't like risks, especially when it comes to where money is involved, and buying a game isn't random chance like a poker game or something like that, there's no strategy, there's no bluff, no other players at the table. There's you, $60 and the choice between games that you can have no way of knowing whether they'll be any good at all. People takes risks all the time. Hell, even you, as a pirate. Say you find yourself enjoying a game, you do take the risk of buying it, not knowing the rest of the game will act accordingly. Why not just do it from the start? And no, CD cracks aren't illegal if they are strictly used for games already owned. Not the same thing. Well, I could scan the receipts of the next game I buy, but there's no way of proving to you that I pirated it before hand, and if I do pirate a game, how am I to prove that it's pirated? I'm not talking about just you. I'm taking about a majority of the pirates. Give me some statistical info that there's a great number of them actually buying the game. (see what I did there?) |
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Piracy
Jan 31, 2009 4:07:27 GMT -5
Post by Darknezz on Jan 31, 2009 4:07:27 GMT -5
This, again, is just "people said it happened." I want a case where people took a completely new, untouched disc, put it in to a completely new disc drive, and it gives an error like the one in that case (which, by the way, had nothing to do with the anti-piracy crap on the discs). It doesn't happen, because errors like that occur when the disc isn't read correctly, which happens when a drive is too old to recognize the disc, or the disc itself is scratched because of careless owners. Now you're just asking for too much. How is this not enough proof? Does the large amount of cases of this report not count for any problem that DRM has caused? Does the large amount of claims of being brought aboard alien space craft validate the claims? Do the large amounts of seeing the Virgin Marry or Jesus or Allah validate those claims? You see where I'm going with this. Keygens generate CD keys. CD keys are proof that I bought the game. If I have a keygen, I bought the game? Exactly. CD keys are proof of nothing. They were used as redundant security. I strongly feel that Steam is worthless in nearly ever respect, but not enough to try to convince you of it. It's not that "I can and I'm lazy," it's that I don't want to shell out $60 on a game that might turn out bad. That's what you're failing to see. It's not the company who makes good games that makes us not want to take risks, the ones that have such high (and I use that as a relative term) amounts of piracy on their games, it's the ones who make bad games. People like Infinity Ward. You're missing the point; You played it without buying it, you didn't "support" the devs, in your terms of "supporting," if you played it at a friend's house, and if it makes you want to buy the game, it achieves the same goal as piracy. Games are almost invariably consistent. They normally stay the same throughout, if it's good or bad, and if it's going to have up and down moments, you will have realized that before you decide whether or not to buy the game. NoCD Patches aren't illegal, true, but the resale of a game is. Statistics? Statistics are meaningless numbers, they can be shaped to whatever form you want. |
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Piracy
Jan 31, 2009 4:34:11 GMT -5
Post by davethezombie on Jan 31, 2009 4:34:11 GMT -5
Does the large amount of claims of being brought aboard alien space craft validate the claims? Do the large amounts of seeing the Virgin Marry or Jesus or Allah validate those claims? You see where I'm going with this. You're mixing beliefs with actual data. Those are actual valid cases of the problem occurring. Even the company themselves admitted to the problem. Keygens generate CD keys. CD keys are proof that I bought the game. If I have a keygen, I bought the game? Exactly. CD keys are proof of nothing. They were used as redundant security. I strongly feel that Steam is worthless in nearly ever respect, but not enough to try to convince you of it. Well if anyone can get a keygen, how is it that they are not available to trade back into retailers? Then why do you use steam? It's not that "I can and I'm lazy," it's that I don't want to shell out $60 on a game that might turn out bad. That's what you're failing to see. Then show a little patience and wait till the price lowers. There's plenty of places that offer lower prices for games if you're just that scared into paying for a 60 dollar game. It's not the company who makes good games that makes us not want to take risks, the ones that have such high (and I use that as a relative term) amounts of piracy on their games, it's the ones who make bad games. People like Infinity Ward. If you know they make terrible games, they why bother pirating them at all? Just gonna hope that maybe one day they might make a decent game? Gimme a break. You're missing the point; You played it without buying it, you didn't "support" the devs, in your terms of "supporting," if you played it at a friend's house, and if it makes you want to buy the game, it achieves the same goal as piracy. That may be the way you see the goal of piracy as, but it doesn't apply to other pirates. Once they have full access to the game, they're not gonna see any point in buying. I doubt most of them would even care to support a dev regardless if they enjoyed the game or not. Games are almost invariably consistent. They normally stay the same throughout, if it's good or bad, and if it's going to have up and down moments, you will have realized that before you decide whether or not to buy the game. NoCD Patches aren't illegal, true, but the resale of a game is. Even if they are consistent, you may find yourself not enjoying the game in the end. Feelings are bound to change, no matter how many times you doubt it. And people resale games more times than you think, not like it's a big issue compared to piracy. Statistics? Statistics are meaningless numbers, they can be shaped to whatever form you want. Um... LOLWUT. Shaped in any form you want? No. They're factual data with certainty, whether you like the results or not. Seriously, that was just a horrible comment right there. |
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Piracy
Jan 31, 2009 8:11:42 GMT -5
Post by molagbal on Jan 31, 2009 8:11:42 GMT -5
No, it's not a problem at all, let alone larger than piracy, because there is a balance. People buy both used AND new games. No one really loses out. Perhaps you want to tell that to the developers? If it weren't an issue they wouldn't be thinking of ways to combat it. One of which was to use "Unlock codes" in new games so that those who purchased used had to pay to play certain content. There isn't a balance, people buy both new and used games yes.. but thats missing the point. Even so, used games against new games bought isn't an equal value. But anyway, the point is there isn't an equal share for both used and new games going to both parties. Instead it's one or the other. It IS an issue and a large one, especially in the U.S. Its something that in my mind, is more important to deal with right now than piracy in the games industry. I never said that there's just two, I said that those two were the more obvious choices for someone who wants to save money. I'm not arguing that it's directly fueling piracy either, but that it provides "ammunition" for pirates'. I never said that renting is better for developers nor' am I even arguing that, when you rent games you're spending money to play the game. When you pirate you get it for free and for an unlimited time. One person is spending money for limited time without breaking the law, the other for free and unlimited time who is. Just because there isn't a demo or a trial it doesn't give you the right to pirate. How do you know that the majority of pirates purchase the games after they know they like the game? It IS hurting the developers, they exist to make games and gain money, preferably as much as they can. They have lost potential money and therfore are hurt from it. How hurt they are is a different matter, but to say that they aren't hurting them is false. The way you talk about a game deserving to be bought or not and "try-before-you-buy" makes it seem as though you're trying to justify what you are doing. As if it is perfectly fine to do and within your right to do so. Which isn't the case. I do agree that the Media has exaggerated to an extent but then again when don't they? |
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jidget
Junior Member
Posts: 81
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Piracy
Jan 31, 2009 17:19:56 GMT -5
Post by jidget on Jan 31, 2009 17:19:56 GMT -5
As the son of a games developer, I am strongly against piracy.
It's caused by a few people who think they are better than the rest of the world and don't have to pay for games. Developers spend many years making games that they want other people to enjoy, and the profit is just the small fruit of their labors. My dad said his least favourite part of piracy, wasn't not getting the extra profit, but seeing that buyers did not respect his game enough to go out and buy it properly, in the shops, like any decent human being.
Quick story: When I was in about Year 5, (Something like 6th grade in America), I went to a friend's house. He was a perfectly nice kid, with a nice house and a nice neighborhood. I remember going up to his room to play on his PS2, but he to go to the loo for a moment. I was looking round his room when I came across a large box of pirated games, including the one my dad had recently released. I took the disc from the box and hid it in my coat pocket, along with two others. When I got home, I snapped the discs, and threw them in the bin.
The problem is, kids are being brought up thinking that piracy is ok. They assume that, just cause their dad or mum did it, they can do it too. We know murder's wrong, and so is piracy.
We just have to be brought up being told that.
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Piracy
Jan 31, 2009 17:26:58 GMT -5
Post by PanchoJoshi on Jan 31, 2009 17:26:58 GMT -5
Dave if you reeeally want to get in to this then fine. How would I feel? First of all if I put anythign out there that I could make money off of I would expect piracy. Mainly because I have come to terms with the fact that life isnt fair. So what if sometimes something doesn't go your way? Thats life, you have to deal with it. There will always be "Good" and "Evil" in life, either you can spend your whole life preachings, or just learn to live with it. (Thats no geared towards anyone one this forums, its just my personal opinion) |
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