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Post by mypallyowndu on Nov 8, 2008 16:50:49 GMT -5
Um, no, nowhere did I claim that abortion is murder. Indeed, Thomson's hypothetical is a way of having to avoid that whole issue of whether a fetus is a person. Her argument is that even where life is a given (no one would argue that the violinist is not a person), it is still morally permissible to "abort."
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Post by Darknezz on Nov 8, 2008 16:58:29 GMT -5
Um, no, nowhere did I claim that abortion is murder. Indeed, Thomson's hypothetical is a way of having to avoid that whole issue of whether a fetus is a person. Her argument is that even where life is a given (no one would argue that the violinist is not a person), it is still morally permissible to "abort." You didn't say it. You're pussyfooting around it. |
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Reaper5103
Full Member
i fucking knew it
Posts: 360
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Post by Reaper5103 on Nov 8, 2008 17:02:42 GMT -5
this whole topic is a bad idea, look a woman's body is her choice, if she doesn't want the child than she can have an arbortion but if its past the 3 trimester the fetus is on her "life support" i'm not to big into looking into this subject but this is my opinion
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Post by mypallyowndu on Nov 8, 2008 17:18:02 GMT -5
Dark, I'm not seeing where anything I've said even came close to implying that abortion is murder/ Could you please point it out? I may not have been clear in that particular proposition.
Let me try one last time, hopefully more cogently. Much of the debate around abortion centers around whether or not the fetus is a person. That is a discussion that tends to go nowhere. (This is beside the point, but, for the record, I do not consider a fetus to be a person).
That's why Thomson's hypo is so helpful. She basically is saying "fine, let's assume the fetus is a person --- so what?" The result is still the same --- it is morally permissible to stop someone from using your body even if it kills that person.
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Reaper5103
Full Member
i fucking knew it
Posts: 360
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Post by Reaper5103 on Nov 8, 2008 17:49:34 GMT -5
i think what pally is trying to say, and if i'm wrong forgive me, is that if you do abort can you live with yourself knowing you did what you did
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Post by Dee-Rizzle on Nov 8, 2008 23:20:55 GMT -5
I thought what Pally was saying whether you consider the baby a person or not, you'd be able to live with yourself if you aborted.
I personally would chop the guy off. Maybe if they hadn't of sneak-attacked me and attached him while I was sleeping, I might would put up with him for 9 months. Sorry if you didn't want it taken literally, Pally.
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ioski
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Post by ioski on Nov 9, 2008 12:20:11 GMT -5
I'm pro-choice.
Women can do whatever they want with their bodies, as far as I'm concerned. I detest the people who call it murder. I would assume the reason people seek abortions is because they can't provide/care for the child. To me, I would think that never knowing what life is is a better alternative than living a crappy one and struggling to survive.
I see it with more of a hippie mind process. If the child is not born, then it's life simply goes into the next child that is born. It's like a line of people at an ice cream stand; if they can't get the one they want, they just order a different flavor.
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Post by jennadi on Nov 10, 2008 7:13:20 GMT -5
To be completely honest, I am pro-choice. And what made me completely sure that I was pro-choice was this; it's probably better for the baby to be aborted before it can be born into some horrible situation. I'm not saying that would always be the case, but I'm saying that if it is, it's probably better for the baby to never experience that then to become the child of some crack addict, or go through all these foster homes just to be tossed to another family, feeling unwanted, or be born into poverty. I know that some adopted children have loving foster parents, but that is sometimes not the case. I completely agree and this is why: I'm adopted. My biological mother was 26 years old when she got pregnant with me. She had been on and off with my biological father for quite some time and allegedly he was abusive. She didn't feel she would be able to provide a good life for me (she's manic depressive and has been hospitalized multiple times) despite the fact my grandmother said she would raise me. My mother gave me up for adoption to what she thought was the "perfect family." If anybody had done their research they would have found out that this family had adopted a baby girl before me and a couple years later oddly put her up for adoption again. But nobody did and for the first 5 years of my life I was with that family. They say the first 5 years of a person's life are the most important. I agree. On my fifth birthday, I remember my "father" said that I was adopted and that they were putting me up for adoption again. I don't remember being upset or feeling anything. I spent a whole year in an orphanage including my sixth birthday. I was adopted by another family that is still with me today. As I got older, my mom (the one I have now) gradually told me more and more about my previous family and why they put me up for adoption. My first adoptive mother had munchausen syndrome. She would purposely make me sick and take me to the doctor. I was lucky though. My sister (their biological daughter) was throwing up all the time and they treated her sickness like a burden. One time, when my "mother" took me to the doctor he noticed something else. Something he suspected my "father" did to me. He made a couple of calls. When my "father" heard about this he figured the best solution was to get rid of me. Being a well respected family physician he couldn't have such an accusation tarnish his reputation, no matter how true it was. I don't have any visual memory of what that man did to me but in certain situations I get these gut wrenching feelings of insecurity and violation to the point where I'm literally debilitated and want nothing more than to run and hide. I've been in therapy since I was 6 and though I'm able to deal with these things, I can't make them go away. If my biological mother had had an abortion, none of this would have happened to me. I wouldn't have depression. I wouldn't have anxiety. I wouldn't have extreme mood swings. I wouldn't have to be on medication for all of that. I wouldn't have trust issues. I wouldn't have serious problems with males especially my present father. My life is much better now than it used to be, but no amount of happiness can ever make up for what happened to me in my first 5 years of life. I AM PRO-CHOICE. |
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exocel
Devoted Member
Level up!
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Post by exocel on Nov 11, 2008 21:25:48 GMT -5
the murder thing has always bugged me, because its always relative on what stage of development the fetus is. i think i read in a science magazine i picked up by chance once that very early on human fetus' and chimp fetus' are indistinguishable, plus when a dude, to be crude, blows his load, theres millions of single celled life forms that die, only one of them makes it.
is that murder too?, knowing millions of creatures will die in the process?
thats why theres a line on the "murder when its human" but no one can seem to be able to define what that is.
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Post by evilplans on Nov 21, 2008 19:03:48 GMT -5
peek-a-boo
i've been gone for a good 2 weeks so i want here for alot of things, including this thread. so im replying now
California recently passed a prop/law/ whatever that states that 'a woman (this includes teenage girls) can get an abortion without parental consent'.....well actually i dont know if thats true.....but it doesnt matter
what do you all think about that?
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Post by deathwish18 on Feb 9, 2009 16:19:19 GMT -5
im pro-choice so if she wants it out of her for god sakes take the kid out of her
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Post by Wednesday_R on Feb 9, 2009 16:26:30 GMT -5
Old thread... But I read this an hour ago, and its worth posting. My belief is that the choice is the mother's, as long as that choice is made BEFORE the embryo has a detectable heartbeat. If she's too indecisive, that's her problem. |
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Yahto
Junior Member
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Post by Yahto on Feb 19, 2009 8:10:08 GMT -5
I have no vagina that I know of, so it's not a topic for me to decide on. Simple as that.
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Post by hyacinthex on Feb 20, 2009 9:50:47 GMT -5
For the record, Darknezz, I hate you.
I'd also like to point out to everyone that is running around saying they're pro-choice that "pro-choice" is -not- the same thing as "pro-abortion."
At any rate .. I don't know how I feel about it. I got knocked up. I thought about having an abortion (what newly 18 year-old wouldn't?). I cried over it every night for 2 months, then decided to keep it. I now have the best person I've ever known in my life -- but I share him with the worst. My ex-husband likes to make my life a living hell over this child, but that's another story entirely.
I didn't have the guts to essentially end a life back then. I knew it was going to be difficult, I knew I'd have to give up pretty much everything I wanted to do, and I knew that I would probably never have "enough" money ever again, but I was too emotionally hung up over the fact that I'd be killing something to go through with the abortion. In the end, I couldn't be more grateful for my fear.
That being said .. Now, knowing how hard it is to be a young mother, and with the financial mess I'm already in .. I can tell you that if, by some great misfortune bestowed upon me by the Condom and Birth Control Gods, I get pregnant again, I'm not keeping it.
Sounds awful, but, I'm smart enough to know that I can't raise two children right now. I don't have the time, money, patience, etc. And I don't need to attach myself to another some-guy-who-will-probably-be-an as.shole (the father) for an additional 18 years of my life. :3
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Oreo
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Post by Oreo on Feb 20, 2009 11:39:39 GMT -5
Wednesday's link is broken, I kind of wanted to read it. =\
"Pro-choice individuals often do not consider themselves "pro-abortion" because they consider abortion an issue of bodily autonomy, and find forced abortion as legally indefensible as the outlawing of abortion"
I am pro choice because I am a woman. I can say that I honestly believe most of the people who are pro-life are men who don't have a clue. Should any woman say she doesn't want control over her own bodily functions is silly in all senses. And I feel that no one should have to force a woman to have a child that she cannot raise due to her current life-stance.
Though I never believed or thought about it before, I have to agree with Wednesday. Women should definitely have the choice to abort or not, however, if they are indecisive, that really is their own problem. Should the baby be so far along that she finally decides she doesn't want it. . . it isn't right to wait that long, unless there is some sort of reason she did not know she was pregnant? Hell if I know how that'd happen, I believe most women find out within 15 weeks. I don't believe it is murder until the child is officially born, but I think it is fair to say that once there is a heartbeat, it is alive, and now it is your child.
ANYWAY, Should definitely be able to choose if you want to keep the baby or not. Just because the choice is there, doesn't mean everyone is going to get abortions left and right; Hya for example. But since she has the choice, she is smart enough to know that she is not financially capable of providing a healthy life for a second child, and in such a case, should not be forced to keep it.
As a side note, adoption has it's benefits, such as for those couples who cannot have children themselves, but would wish to adopt. My neighbors were unable to have a child, so they adopted... but they found a mother in a hospital that just found out she was pregnant. I think instead of asking the woman if she wanted to have an abortion because she could not take care of the child, doctors should inform parents willing to adopt before the child is even born, so that those children can be born into their adoptive families. They can have the choice to send them to an already waiting family, or an abortion. I think adoption before birth should also be considered an option. It has been fantastic for my neighbors who have now adopted 2 lovely children.
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